From Implementer to Integrator: The Two Seats That Move a Company

00:00 · Cold Open

The business world is obsessed with productivity hacks, efficiency models, and the next big framework. And it's all missing the point. Because the real edge, it's been dismissed as soft, irrelevant, unprofessional. This is the Dream Dividend, where we're done apologizing for putting people before process, and the ROI speaks for itself. Time to break some rules. Here's your host, Kevin Patrick. A few years ago, I sat in a room with my leadership team and a complete stranger. He asked us a question that I couldn't answer at the time. It's not because it was hard. It was because the answer required me to admit that the company I was helping run at the time didn't actually have a vision. We had a budget.

We had targets and we had a roadmap, but we didn't have a vision. And the stranger in the room, Adam Pantrelli, was the impleer who was about to walk us through what it would take to build one. What happened next changed how I think about running a business. Not because EOS is magic. It isn't. Because the work of being an integrator, of sitting in that seat and actually running the company against a vision that everyone agreed to is the hardest and most clarifying work I've ever done. It's the work I now do for other founders through Trinity 1. And the man who first showed me what that seat could be is our guest today.

This is the Dream Dividend. And as always, I'm KP. Today, we're going to go inside the relationship between the impletor and the integrator. The two seats that when they're in sync can move a company at a speed nothing else can match. Adam Pontelli is a fourth generation entrepreneur. He spent more than two decades building AP World Marketing into a firm with retail partnerships at Costco, Walmart, Target, Amazon, and a list of others most people would call careerhigh all by themselves. He discovered EOS through the Entrepreneurs Organization. He implemented it inside his own business and now he's a professional EOS imple based in Los Angeles. He's coached leadership teams across industries and full disclosure to you, he was my implement, Adam, my man.

02:10 · Meet Adam Pontrelli

Welcome to the Dream Dividend. >> Thanks for having me, Kevin. Privilege to be here. >> So before we get into the work, let's uh let's start with something I think most of our audience has never heard articulated, right? Um and that's you and I have known each other from inside an EOS engagement. Uh for the audience, what does it actually mean when an implementer and an integrator have history? >> Yeah, I think it's a great thing. Even when we don't have history, when I'm working with an impletor that knows EOS, it's just a big plus. I feel like there's a a little silent communication or almost a telepathy between us, but of course, when we get to know each other better, that relationship just tends to blossom even more, >> right?

03:30 · The Shared Lens - What Makes This Relationship Different

So, when you walk into a leadership team for the first time, what are you reading? I'm sizing up the room. I'm wondering where the work is. I'm wondering where what's holding them back. What do they see versus what do I see? How am I going to present that? How are they going to be receptive to that information? It's like a puzzle piece. >> Yeah. So, are you able to tell usually like after the first 90 minute session whether the engagement's going to work? >> I'd like to think I keep getting better at selecting the right clients. >> Fair. >> Some of them just excite me because I've been in their shoes before.

You know, you got to certainly want to grow and you got to want to make change and you got to be coachable. You got to be willing to listen and willing to be vulnerable. >> So counter to that, is there a tell when it isn't going to work early? >> Sure. Yeah. And and that that comes in several forms too. When you know I if everything's working, you know, if I were to ask them how when I rate, you know, ask them to rate how is how's the accountability in the company? how uh you know does everybody have a process uh you know whatever I ask them and they're they're rating themselves highly I feel like they're maybe a little bit in the the weeds or maybe in the forest a little bit because >> you know there's the work right there if you if you don't feel like you have room to grow there in lies your answer.

>> Yeah. Fair. So, you've seen a lot of integrators across your book. What separates the ones who genuinely run the company from the ones who just chair the meeting? >> That's a great question, Kevin. I think the best implementers and facilitators for that matter are the ones that could interrupt people without anybody taking offense to it because we know we're there for the same reason and we're there to stay on point. and they're the ones that have this unique ability to uh it's it's drive change. It's harmoniously weave the way everybody plays together while achieving a common vision. But they also are the ones that beat the drum in the organization.

So they have got their hands in everything. >> So level weekly leadership meetings, right? They either become the heartbeat of the company or they become a chore people endure. What does it take from the integrator to keep them sharp? Keep the excitement and the momentum going. What does it take from the integrator in your view? >> A lot of this doesn't just fall on the integrator. Again, if we've got that integrator who is running the meeting, who no one's going to take offense when they're interrupting, when they're driving the meeting, and when people are seeing results day in and day out, week in and week out, and certainly in the quarterlys and the annuals, and you're seeing progress, it's like going to the gym. when you're when you're might be hard to get started in the beginning, it's a little rough, but you look in the mirror and you start seeing changes that motivates you to go back to the gym more and more. So, yes, a great a great integrator is going to show them the way and lead them, but great people are the ones that are going to stay engaged and stay motivated. So, it's two-part.

>> Yeah, for sure. >> Have you ever have have you ever had whether an integrator or a visionary or just part of the team surprise you? Somebody that took the system further than you expected. >> I have had both sides, Kevin. I've I've had had people that looked at it and said, "We're not going to do this unless we're really going to take it seriously." And right out of the gate, they are in lock step with everything that I can show them and teach them and they stay with it and they're engaged and they're they're ready to move on about as fast as anybody else. And then I've had the other side of the coin where someone i.e. the visionary doesn't feel like they need to be a part of the meeting or doesn't feel like they can be a part of the meeting because they don't have enough time and the rest of the team suffers >> for sure.

08:00 · The Integrator Seat - Running the Company vs. Chairing the Meeting

>> So good great segue into the responsibility map, right? It's a beautiful beautiful tool on paper. In practice, it surfaces the conversations nobody wants to have, right? How do you coach again whether an integrator or somebody else through the first time they have to move a leadership team member out of a seat? Gosh, I have seen I've seen it all when we're when we're talking about responsibility map, right? I've heard that person and it blew everyone in the room away. Sorry, I'm I'm uh I'm getting a little too detailed on it. So, I have seen someone say, "Look, I know I trained you. I know I've been here longer, but what this company needs is the skills that you bring, and I think you deserve to be in this seat."

And even repeating it now, it's two years later. It still puts a hair up on my arms because, as you can imagine, what happened in that meeting is everyone was so bonded together by that gesture that that team became a force. I mean, it was emotional. Someone gave up their seat on the leadership team. So, that's great. It doesn't always happen that way, Kevin. Sometimes there's a little bit of a bake off and and that's the beauty of of EOS is hopefully the information is objective and hopefully it makes it easier to make decisions who should be sitting in what seat. But often times that's a common problem where people ignore that they don't have the right people in the right seats.

I just want to check to make sure I answered your question. >> Yeah, you did. Yeah, more so. And I I don't think you can over answer, right? Cuz so just, you know, I know you told me that you were listening to episodes and were enjoying the Dream Manager stuff. I'm I'm bringing the other side of the equation, right? Like I have that whole human and machine equation thing going on. And how do we attack both sides, right? So I don't I mean it's one of the reasons I asked you here. So so that you could explain it because I mean it's you can explain it better than I can frankly. So it's uh that's yeah we're all good. What does it cost? I'm and I'm focusing on the integrator role obviously so much because that's the role that I sit in. What's interesting is I've had people a few people tell me over the past x amount of months like you sure you're you're not a visionary like because you're you're pretty out there like with some of the things you try to do. So I don't know separate conversation for a separate time but what does it cost an integrator personally to hold the line on accountability when the team is drifting right that's the word we would use drift >> well I would say the more important question is what does it cost them to not hold the line when they're not doing their job that that's their job >> is to drive accountability So if you're letting that slide, you're letting the whole system slide.

>> Yeah, fair. Good answer. >> So on the flip side of that, right, when you see somebody doing the work well, really well, what changes in the rest of the company over the next 90 to 180 days? Yeah, I think you know in the beginning of the EOS journey, there's a few sessions that come in succession over the the first 60 days and we teach a bunch of tools. We get everybody aligned on their vision and then right out of the gate from there we jump into full execution mode where you know in a typical engagement I'll run their quarterlys and annuals thereafter. And when the integrators really holding people accountable and they're setting the right rocks and those weekly leadership meetings are checking in. And when when you come to that moment where you're reporting only on the rocks and somebody says it's on track and that means they're committing that their rocks are going to be done and everyone in the room is counting on them to get that that part of the vision done 60 days, 90 days, 120 days out. If you're hitting your rocks and we're shooting for 80%, we don't want them so far out that they're just aspirational.

That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, >> you know, and you're hitting 80% of your rocks. Those rocks are taking you to your one-year goals, to your three-year picture and to your 10 year target or your core target. >> Yeah. So you have right if you if I just think back through experience right you have people on the leadership team in various organizations that will say week in and week out on level 10s that they're on track and then you get to the quarterly and when I'm sitting in the room with you and it's not done where do where that conversation. Yeah. Well, how a how do you prevent it? B, how do we address it in the room?

>> I mean, I I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it. >> Sure. >> It is a great question. Look, the whole point of the system is we want to self-improve over time. So, sometimes mistakes are hard are the best lessons learned. But a couple ways to prevent that. One, I tell people, hey, when you when you're telling us you're on track, you're committing to us that it it's going to be done. And then they might get cute and then wait till a week or two before and you say, "I'm off track." And how you prevent that is you set some milestones.

14:30 · Accountability and Functional Ownership

You set some milestones periodically. So, how do you know and how do we know if you're hitting what is it? What would it look like if it was done and what would it take to get it done? And you throw some dates in there, >> right? >> Transparency. It's good for them, it's good for you, it's good for the whole company. >> Yep. So, just from what I've seen, most integrators and impleers your seat come up through like one function, right? It's either sales or it's operations or it's finance. What's the unlock when one or the other integrator or impleer can can credibly speak to all three sides of that situation or that responsibility map >> effectively to communicate which each with each >> Yeah. So, right, like what does the Yeah, I mean, yeah. What What does the unlock look like for a sales guy to be able to also drive operations and finance? Or probably even more difficult is an operations person to drive sales, >> right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about a smaller company, Kevin, and >> and we might not have the right people in the right seats and someone is sitting in two seats, it's still an issue >> because each if if you've listed the five rules in each of the responsibility map and they everybody knows what's expected of them and we set up measurables to determine what success looks like in that role, it's still an issue of one person's doing two things or you know I think what people don't realize is what how much time does it take to do that job well and and it's very common in smaller companies certainly when I first started out I was sitting in more than one seat I was probably sitting in more than two seats >> but that it's still an issue and it's about like Dan Sullivan calls it unique ability ility. It's really it's really determined what what brings me energy.

What doesn't feel like work to me? What am I good at or even great at? And then finding the people that's in that quadrant for them to do the things that either I'm not great at or I'm good at, but just because I've had to become good at it, it doesn't really bring me energy. So you got to find the right people to sit in those seats and that's especially for a smaller company that's the work. >> Yeah. >> So sitting in two seats is okay but as long as we identify it as a it's a temporary thing and that doesn't go unnoticed quarter after quarter year after year because that's preventing the company potentially from reaching their goals. You're going to get burnt out.

>> You don't never happens. So every every leadership team leaves the vision building day, right, with theoretically a beautiful VTO. Six months later, half of them are running a business that doesn't match that document, >> right? >> What separates the one who actually translate vision into execution? >> Okay, great great question. So there are there's more than one document that's a living breathing document. We know that the the weekly leadership items are coming off and coming on every week. We know that the responsibility map that's got to be fluid, too. People come in, people come out of the organization, people switch roles. That's got to be fluid. The scorecard, that's got to change. Sometimes it changes when we set new rocks. VTO is the same thing. Every quarter, we climb the tree. We look above the forest. We make sure we're heading in the right direction.

Sometimes you're in the forest, you can't see. And you touch on each one of those eight questions in the VTO or the vision vision traction organizer and you make sure that everybody's still on the same page. If not, just like you do in your weekly leadership meetings, you drop it down into the issues list. It's part of the quarterly pulse, >> right? >> So for for the audience, right, we're we're using a lot of words, so I'm going to kind of Yeah, it's it's great. I'm going to I'm going to pivot and come back to things like so Adam keeps referring to rocks, right? So rocks are the bridge between vision and the next 90 days works, right? Or the next 90 days. They're the big things that need to be done. What does a healthy rock?

20:00 · Vision to Execution - Why Most vision documents Become Museum Pieces

There are 90day priorities. >> Yeah. What does a healthy rock setting process look like? >> Great segue. So, I I mentioned it before. A great rock or a bad rock is when you get there and someone says, "Uh, is it done or not done?" And the rock owner says, "I think it's done." So if we don't have clarity on what done looks like then we're never going to get there. So that's the first thing we got to understand what does done look like and why why that rock and then we set the milestones in you know if if this is where we're going to be in 90 days what does it take to get there and by when are those things getting done? Now we're starting to formulate a good rock.

>> Yes. Especially if we're looking at our three-year picture and our one-year plan and we know what we need to do to get there and we're setting rocks first at the company level and then at the individual level. >> Yeah, it's um just the way you answered it, it's it's very much the same thing in the ERP world, right? Like >> it gets a bad rap, right? I mean, you've heard my um episodes where I I mean, I say it a lot. ERP gets a bad rap. It's not usually the ERP's fault. It's it's it's >> creep. It's scope creep. >> It's scope creep. It's Yeah. It's usually a human problem somewhere. You know, you don't have these multi-billion dollar companies creating products that don't work.

Well, it's a build as we go approach that that ends up becoming frustrating and expensive. >> Yeah. It's one of those things that I learned, >> you know, frankly, the hard way. Like you can't you can't say a project's done unless you know what the owner has defined as success, right? So, that's just something you learn to do over time is in in that side of the business. So this is I don't know if it's a hypothetical question or not. So when the visionary and the integrator are are truly in sync, the company moves at a pace really right that things can't match. What does that partnership feel like from your seat as the implement watching it happen?

>> Well, I mean I remember the days when I was an integrator and I remember the days I was a visionary. So by nature I am a visionary and I was never successful to the extent that I was when I had a great integrator. So it's a symbiotic relationship. The guys who are really good at getting things done, they're in it and their brains are wired. They're just super efficient. Uh and and to have someone that they believe in that they that they I think that they believe in that's going to feed them the ideas and the directions. They're they're typically the ones that have been in it for a long time, have a ton of relationships, can kind of see the crystal ball a little better than others.

when I was an integrator and I looked up to my visionary and when when he said something, I just I took it as the gospel, it got me excited and I drove that those initiatives. I just drove them. And when I was the visionary, >> again, until I found someone that could actually follow through and also have the wisdom to say, "Hey, look, th those 19 ideas are we're going to we're going to keep them on hold. We can't can't execute all of them, but this one is going to take us to the moon. We're going to drive this one." Like, that excited me that I had someone that could drive it and take it to the finish line.

So that it is a is a really great relationship and I think a lot of visionaries don't recognize how beneficial a strong integrator could be in their business. It's a it is a gamecher. >> Yeah. I mean for sure. What would you say the percentage is of this is a kind of brutal question but one I'll ask anyway. How many visionaries are really in your experience over the past say two two to five years how many visionaries are really willing to let the integrator loose to to execute so that they can do what they do. >> That is a that is an interesting question. Uh I think a lot of it depends on what stage they are in the business and a lot of it depends on their relationship which is proven over several things. It's it's proven by experience. It's proven by outcomes.

So that there's a lot of ways to answer that question. Clearly I can't tell you a percentage of how many good ones there are and how many bad ones there are. But they are dependent upon all those things. Yes, there are some visionaries that give uh and it's funny as you ask the question, it's like I've got the movie playing and then there's this one and then there's this one. So, I've got incredibly capable uh integrators, but the visionary is learning how to let go and wants to let go, but have become so in the business over all the years It's an evolution. It does take time and sometimes I need to be there as the either the peacemaker or the one to, you know, encourage them to keep working and keep taking those those steps and showing them the the the gap versus the gain, right? It's that it's that gap versus the gain theory. Another Dan Sullivan term. Instead of looking how far you are from the desired outcome, you look back and you see what you've accomplished. It usually motivates you to move forward rather than I'm still not there. So the gap and the gain is a really important thing to consider and remember when you're in that dynamic.

26:30 · The Personal Cost and The Dividend

>> Yep. So in previous episodes I've said that EOS gives a business like its operating system, right? Like I mean that's literally what it's called, the entrepreneurs operating system. >> It's the guard rail. >> It's like going I like to say it's like going bowling and having the the gutters up in the alley. You you throw the ball, you're going to hit some pins and you don't have to worry about, you know, you don't have to worry about so much how you're executing. It is an execution engine that harmonizes human energy. And how much does how much does technology play a role in helping facilitate this, you know, the operating system move forward?

>> Yeah. You know, I love these questions, Kevin, because you know as well as I do, there are people, and I certainly have been mentored by some of them, that they can be in their flipflops, shorts on a stool with a legal pad and a pencil next to two telephones. And I'm dating myself here, but 20, 30 years ago, they were making a million bucks a year. No technology. So, do you need technology? No. Does it help? Sure. You're also talking to the wrong guy. I like tech, >> right? >> Yeah. Fair. Touche. Um, what what are you seeing in your client base right now that you weren't seeing two or three years ago?

>> I think AI is in on everybody's mind. And if I remember when like top level domains came and you know like websites came out and I was like oh my god this is going to change everybody's life guys in the same boat and yes of course there's a whole lot of smoke and mirrors and a whole lot of people out there and I give them kudos for trying building getting the reps doing things. It is clear that a large portion of that is going to fail, but it's still going to set you up and and uh pave the way for everything else that's coming. It is it is like I I think it's more exciting and bigger than when the internet went from Unixbased and codebased to the web. I think it's bigger is definitely changing things.

>> Yeah, I mean agreed. Right. You and I have conversations out outside of um you know preparing for for this interview just the things that we got going on around it. It's um I just wish the fear from people would go away around it, right? like it's that that that that message has to be sorted out that you know AI is taking your life away, right? >> Yeah. I mean, mistakes will be made, but you won't be the only one. >> Yeah. >> And you got to keep a good head on your shoulders and and uh you know, don't be sleepy when you're when you're setting things up.

>> Yeah. Fair. All right. So, trick question. Not really trick question. Flip the script question. If you were the one one asking >> the questions today, this was Adam's show. >> What's the one you'd want every integrator you've ever coached to answer honestly or an imple matter? >> Yeah. I mean, if I was looking to hire someone, I would want them. First of all, I want I would want to know why they're doing what they're doing and what they're willing to do to become successful and I would want them to know I would want to know what they're what their deal breakers are. Okay. >> So, that second because >> we all have to get aligned.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The second part took away my request, which is good. It's great. Yeah, it was really good. So, Adam, look, man. Thank you. The best look, where do people find you, right? If somebody's looking for an implement, I mean, I know what I did and I could speak it, but >> it should come from you. How do people get in touch with you? >> Yeah. No. Well, first of all, thanks for for having me on the show. Just as I was on my way home from the gym this morning, I I uh picked up Spotify and I looked this up and I and the first thing I listened to was You're in a Dark House. Is that Is that right?

>> Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. The 12 rooms. Yeah. >> And I'm I'm honestly speechless. What a fantastic listen. I wish I knew this part of you sooner. Um I love the work that you're doing. So, thanks for having me. Uh, >> I love helping founders and frankly leadership teams and absolving them from all those decades that I had pounding my head up against the wall. I I I mean, I didn't even know I wasn't as successful as I could be. So, if there's anything I can do to help, I'm I'm certainly happy to uh have a conversation with anybody, point them in the right direction. You can find me at adam.pantrell.com.

32:00 · The Close - Reversing the Mic

Uh, no, sorry. Adam adam.pantrelliosworldwide.com >> or adapantrelli.com. Yeah, that's it. And uh, again, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, abs. Absolutely. I mean, I'm genuinely grateful for your time today and grateful for the seat that you helped me learn to run and, you know, just grateful for what has, you know, blossomed into a frankly I'm confused whether we have a friendship or if I look if I look to you more as a mentor. Both are great. So, I'm going to go with it's both. >> Well, let's keep fostering them all. >> It all goes both ways. Yeah. Um, so here's what I want people to take away from the conversation.

The imple doesn't run your company if you're going to bring in EOS, right? It's not their job to run your company. And the integrator, which is the role that I sit in, usually doesn't build the vision. Um, but most importantly, the visionary doesn't execute the plan cuz that can go, you know, as Adam has referenced, guide rails a few times, off the rails pretty quickly. Every every it's set up in a way so that every seat does its job. We we referenced it earlier. We didn't get into much about it, but that's fine. But Adam referred to I got the right people in the right seats and there's a process to getting them there. But when those seats are in sync, right, the company moves and that's the point of EOS is, you know, to come from the books that taught EOS.

That's where companies gain traction and that's where they can launch off the launch pad, you know, kind of as stated in rocket fuel. But here's the thing nobody puts in the books, right? The operating systems run with humans and humans need their own operating system. And that's why this show exists, right? That's that's what I refer to as the Dream Dividend. The business gets the traction, the operators get their lives back, and both are required. So, if you're a founder, right, or an operator and you're feeling the pressure of the seat you're in right now, that's what I do at Trinity 1 and from a from a fractional integrator side and that's what Adam does from the EOS seat and implementing. It's a amazing relationship. Right.

34:30 · Outro - The Human + Machine Equation

If any of what Adam and I have spoken about rings a bell, reach out. There's going to be links in the show's notes. I think that's about it. I'm still KP and this has been the Dream Dividend. Adam, thank you again. And to everybody listening, you know, keep building, keep dreaming, and don't forget to take the dividend. If this episode made you uncomfortable, good. That means you are paying attention. The future belongs to leaders who stop managing people like assets and start investing in them like humans. See you next time and remember, dreams aren't frivolous. Ignoring them is.