Building a Resilient Mindset: Ken Wisnefski on Business in the Internet Age

Every great business starts with one audacious belief. For my guest today, that belief was simple. The internet was going to change everything. And he was going to be the one helping businesses survive that change. That was 25 years ago. That was two company exits. He has a national agency, a television show, and I think we can all agree that he was right. Ken, welcome to the dream dividends. >> Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it and thanks for uh thanks for the intro. You make me uh you make me seem a lot smarter than I than I think I am that I had that type of had that type of foresight to uh to predict the the future of uh of the internet. But uh it's it sounds good on the leadin, man.

You you you definitely put me out there. I appreciate it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um well, today we're gonna we're gonna build something. We're going to jump in. We're going to talk about a lot. So, let's just jump right into it. Um, so first, Ken, before we do anything else, I want to publicly say thank you. Couple years ago, you stepped up and donated to the football program that I was running at the time, brought the team pink jerseys for breast cancer awareness month. I believe that was in memory of your mother. You know, that kind of thing tells me everything that I need to know about who a person actually is because you didn't know me from Adam, right? You you didn't know me at all.

Your son was with the program, but so thank you >> really from the bottom of my heart. >> You're welcome. And you know, I mean, I think one of the biggest things that, you know, um, I always look at is when, you know, people like yourself are out there trying to do good things for the kids and and different programs and they're they're putting in a lot of time. You know, sometimes, you know, it's it's nice when people that maybe aren't as hands-on can come in and try to contribute in some way. And I thought that that was really really a good concept. you know, I think uh you know, doing something like that to be able to kind of in some way, you know, honor my mom was, you know, was really kind of cool, too. So, I appreciated the opportunity and thanks thank you for for bringing it up. Thank you.

>> Yeah, man. Um, kids loved them, too, by the way. We >> all the kids love that stuff. >> He looked bold and going through the playoffs. It was fun. So now let's let's take people back before WebMax, before the TV show or really before everything. Here we have a guy who believed that the internet was the future when most businesses didn't even have a website yet. Where does that story actually start for you? >> Well, you know, when I was in college, getting out of college was when like email kind of first started. And you know to tell you how much of a kind of a belief I had or really on that was like I was like why would we need this like this is seems like a total waste of time for me to really learn this. And then, you know, got out of college, started working and started to see how more and more, you know, kind of people, younger people were using the internet and how much there was the divide between people that were kind of secured in their roles and, you know, weren't really able to use the internet and, you know, I had a sales job doing a lot of outside sales and, you know, people were constantly just using the phone. I was always taught to to cold call, you know, show up in person, phone, and then started to use email because it started to become a little bit more prevalent. And I noticed right away that, you know, I was, you know, I was in my early to mid20s out there cold calling against guys that are probably my age today, you know, in their in their 50s who were super experienced and they didn't know how to use email. So I all of a sudden was getting responses from people that were hard to get in touch with and they were you know setting up meetings and everything and a lot of it was through email and I realized that at that moment there was kind of this you know inflection point if you will that there wasn't you know really you know certain people weren't really tuned into this technology that was like readily available and it got my mind spinning and talked about how you know Hey, how can I leverage this and my kind of sales background into something that could kind of be a business? And that was the first time that I really kind of thought about how I could kind of translate, you know, just what I was seeing in real time into a business.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, talk me through the first two companies. talk me through um I think the first one was Impact Direct. >> Sure. So, Vendor Seek was actually the the first one and Vendor Seek was basically essentially a business that really focused on, you know, being able to connect business businesses with potential vendors, the name Vendor Seek. So, you know, essentially what we were able to do was people would put in requests for different services they need. we'd get them multiple quotes and in turn, you know, we would, you know, we would generate revenue by selling those selling those leads to different companies. Uh where we really kind of saw success was we were able to kind of find uh you know, services in markets that were kind of new. So, you know, about that time, uh search engine optimization was something that really kind of came to the forefront and we were the first company really working and doing marketing in that area. uh website design, as you mentioned, a lot of companies didn't even have websites then. So, there was this huge rush to really get websites. So, we were in a lot of these newer categories, if you will, that were highly active with buyers, and we were able to connect them with with people that were, you know, able to provide those type of services.

So, Vendor Seek was really kind of the first opportunity to really be able to put that into the mix, which which kind of led into Impact Direct because Impact Direct was really we would have scenarios where we couldn't we would have so much volume for certain leads, specifically in the website design category, that we couldn't actually sell them to enough vendors because vendors were like, "We've gotten 500 leads this month. our sales team can't keep up. So, >> god forbid. God forbid. >> Yeah, exactly. We were like, well, what if we had our own little company that just took all the overflow and then we could, you know, could try to sell those so we're just not burning money on, you know, kind of lost revenue. And that kind of spawned, you know, kind of impact direct, which really kind of, you know, became kind of a side agency and and supported vendor and, you know, was really something that kind of got me involved in, you know, the agency space, if you will.

>> Right. So, you sold Vendor Seek in 2008. >> Yeah. which, you know, I mean, believe it or not, my audience demographic is is folks in their late 20s, early 30s, so they don't remember this so much like we do. Uh, but for those that are our age, right, most people remember that was the start. 2008 was the start of the worst recession in 80 years. >> Yep. Most people after cashing out in the business that they just spent the last x amount of years building, right, they're going to exit and take a breath. You jumped right into WebMax. Why? Yeah. >> Um, you know, I think that one of the things that was was really kind of happened with vendor seek was, you know, in the early stages, you know, we were kind of small and, you know, kind of trying to figure things out. And I kind of felt that just when we figured things out and we're really kind of taking off, we came in and got got acquired. And I felt like somewhat like okay like let me kind of ride that momentum and you know take that immediately to to another business and and you know try to try to you know take that type of philosophy and and grow things and literally we got our transaction done and I think it was about two weeks later right the the the bottom fell out of everything. So had you know we been delayed or there been some issue that whole dynamic of that deal would have changed it may it may not have even ever happened. So um you know kind of you know from that perspective uh you know I was very you know I consider myself very very fortunate and very lucky that that it kind of went that way. And then when you know we kind of started up WebMax, the biggest challenge was we went from having this kind of fast growing really fast growing business and things were clicking and you know everything was really kind of going you know full steam ahead to whoop being back at square one and you know having to try to really restart things and yeah I guess I had a little bit of credit on the street you know just kind of going through what I had gone through but I realized you know that'll only get you so far. you know, people are looking for real life examples of how you're able to help them in the business you have today. And uh I would say that that coupled with, you know, the the big recession that we had there, you know, really kind of made for what was kind of a very slow start for WebMax. And, you know, part of me, you know, probably questioned, was this the right plan? Was this the right idea to really go forth and do this so quickly?

Should I have, you know, kicked back for a while? Whatever. But um you know so it was it was a slow start. I can't say that it was like a you know boom I snapped my fingers and and everything was really flying. >> Right. Well I mean look either way it takes either tremendous courage or tremendous stubbornness to be able to to go with it. It's probably a little bit of both. Right. >> Probably a little bit of both. You could have said stupidity. Yeah. It probably would have been right too. Yeah. I think that uh I think that it was you know uh yeah I mean I think you know it was just a matter of you know wanting to continue to kind of harness that momentum and and being able to kind of take it and it was definitely eye opening because it just kind of grinded to to a halt and you know it it definitely took you know well over a year going on two years before things really started to to kind of click. though, you know, it was uh you know, it was definitely uh humbling, you know, and and just kind of, you know, brought me back to the notion of, you know, that was like regardless of kind of how you are when you take a step back like that, you're a startup again. You know, you've got to build all that brand value, you got to build all those things again. Yes, you know, some of the things you've done in the past can help you, but it's not going to help you enough.

like you're you've got and that was probably the biggest uh kind of turning point for me was really being like okay like I can't treat this as an extension of the things we did at vendorseek I need to treat this as a sole new business we can say hey here are some of the great things we've done but here's the things we're doing now and once I kind of got to that point and we were able to kind of start to get some clients on board that was really the breaking point for us to really be able to to see the growth that we were looking before. So, it was definitely it was definitely scary for a while there because, you know, I thought to myself, hey, you know, maybe, you know, you were locked out on the the one concept and and you know, you don't have what it takes to keep doing it. So, uh you know, no no question about it. You know, if you're an entrepreneur, you know, there's those moments of doubt, right?

There's those moments where you think to yourself, did I make the right decision? Did I do that? Am I doing things right? You know, I think the big thing for entrepreneurs is really kind of having to to take that self-reflective look at things and really be able to make that decision around what's holding you back like and how do you break that cycle to be able to find your path forward. >> Yeah, for sure. So, for listeners who don't know WebMax, give us the 30 to 60 second pitch. Sure. So we we really started off very, you know, heavy in um search engine optimization. You know, it was kind of the invogue thing there, you know, 2008, 2009. Over time, you know, we really kind of expanded into, you know, really a comprehensive uh digital marketing agency. So, you know, everything from social media uh into design. Uh, one of the things that really kind of came into the forefront as we got into the COVID time frame was something called reputation management. You know, there was a, you know, an immense amount of scrutiny, right, over things that people had done or said in the past. And some of those people had really, you know, it was relatively something minor that, you know, took place years and years ago and it was kind of brought to the forefront. You know, people were losing jobs, people were businesses were suffering and all these things were kind of happening very very quickly and reputation management really became something that you know we started to focus on that much more and you know really kind of you know I would say from a business perspective it was a little bit different because you know most of the time we work with businesses and hey it's always great to see businesses grow and it's always great to see the stories behind people having success. Yes, but this was more personal. you know, these were people that, you know, um, in large part were, you know, were were good people that, you know, had tweeted something, you know, in 2011 that, you know, at the time was probably, you know, accepted, but in that time frame right then it was questioned and their whole life was turned upside down because of, you know, this moment of, you know, I don't know, maybe maybe lack of compassion or just maybe lack of awareness or just maybe even the standard >> lack of a filter.

>> Yeah. Or even just times have changed, right? You know, like the things things maybe you could say then you can't say now, whatever the case may be. But the thing that was rewarding about it was really being able to to have more of a personal connection with people and and help them through some of those challenges, you know, being able to to see some of those things when people were really, you know, their lives were being turned upside down by something like that. you know, it was, you know, it was it was kind of it was a positive thing that I felt we were able to to do.

And now you know kind of the climate's changed a little bit again you know so and you know that's brought on to where we are today which really you know AI is really you know everybody's talking about it and there's a reason why everybody's talking about it because it's really become so ingrained in parts of our lives but it's really being ingrained heavily into business and it's really being ingrained heavily into aspects of marketing. So, you know, all those things have really kind of, you know, transitioned just not so much the the way we manage things, but just really kind of the dynamic by which we're, you know, we're approaching, you know, things and how we handle our clients.

>> Yeah. I mean, right, AI has been a buzz word for what, three to five years. >> Yep. >> Honestly, didn't really buy in until probably 18 months ago. And um yeah, I I got a lot going on around it that I'm not going to get into the the secret sauce. This is about you, not about me. Well, I was going to say I think you I think you're being modest because we talked a little bit before we got on the show and it sounds like you're doing uh doing some really some really great things. And again, you know, I think one of the pieces that really impresses me and you know, kind of goes into kind of what we're talking about on the show is just really uh you know, how you were able to kind of I don't want to say pivot, right? But you know basically see an opportunity and really uh immerse yourself in that and you know make yourself you know uh you know someone that really was able to to leverage AI towards your you know towards your benefit. And I think that's something that you know a lot of times people you know uh don't aren't willing to kind of immerse themselves in things to really be able to to kind of utilize it. And uh you know I think that you know your story is a story that I think is a great one because you're you're telling me about some of the things that you were able to do without you know coding or any type of background like that. And you know, I think that's that's some really positive stuff. Even though >> even though you know, I think that that's, you know, like, you know, I think it's just to me that's that just shows a level of, you know, kind of entrepreneurship, that drive that you have to have to be able to learn something that you knew nothing about.

And being able to take it into where you're able to really have something that is, you know, business ready is, you know, you should be you should be proud of yourself for that. >> Yeah. Well, I I took took me till first of all, thank you, but took me till 50 years in a triple bypass to uh figure out that I should I should do that. Thanks. That's pretty funny. So, you have a founders's pledge, right, that says something that, you know, resonates heavily with me, especially in I mean, not just today's climate, but like I'd say even the last 20 to 30 years climate. And that is the difference between flourishing and fledging companies. It shows when things aren't going so well. But when there are bumps in the roads like where where did that well first of all what is it like let's like you to explain your founders pledge and then where did it come from you >> for you? Yeah, I mean I think my pledge is just, you know, to kind of consolidate is really just that, you know, our focus is always really going to be on helping our clients and, you know, I've never been someone who tries to kind of stay entirely behind the scenes, you know, and that our clients can have access and talk to me. You know, so many times when we've had situations where there's been bumps in the road, you know, when clients reach out to me directly, a lot of times it's just a miscommunication, you know, something that's extremely fixable. And, you know, I've always thought, you know, even in, you know, when I have situations, which we've all probably encountered, right, where we're working with a business or whatever the case might be, and there's just nobody, right, who's accountable, right? There's nobody who wants to take that problem on. Everybody's like, "Well, we're going to pass you to this person. Oh, I'm going to pass you to my manager. My manager is going to pass." And nobody really just wants to address it. And so many times I feel like that takes a situation that is, you know, relatively small and it just really expands it. And what I really try to do and what I really try to to take pride in is really getting involved in a situation like that to really identify whatever issues there are and fix them. And you know, I think it's been really something that's been successful for us because um you know, I think a lot of people run from problems. They don't like to address them. And I also think you know, >> hide from them. And when you've got a team of people and you force them to have to deal with some of these things, you know, it puts them in spots that they're uncomfortable with. When they know, hey, Ken's got my back. He's going to come and get involved here and he's going to help me get this fixed. I think it gives them a level of confidence and it gives them a level of respect that they know that you're, you know, you're there for them. And that's been something that uh you know again I really have thought was you know a big piece of how I really like to run the business. And you know accountability to me is really something that I think rings true. I think too many businesses people you know just try to pass the buck and they never really fix things.

And you know, to me, having a business that people can, you know, look at and say, "Hey, you know, whatever happened, you know, these guys worked hard to make it right with us and they got us back on track." And that's to me, you know, the value of a good business. >> Yeah. Right on. Right on. >> As I think you know, I spend my days in ERP implementations, right? So, what you just said is like a pre unplanned segue into kind of like my next comments. Um, you know, ERP gets a bad rep, right? And I think everybody everybody knows it. Um, and the number one reason that those projects fail, it has nothing to do with the software, right? It comes down to the people, the people that are gonna use the system.

>> Even more so, it comes down to culture >> or change resistance. Does that track with what you see on the digital side as well? >> Sure. Absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, people play a big part in the success of all these things and I think, you know, one of the biggest things that we often see is just being able to gain trust, right? you know, where a great example, you know, recently, uh, you know, we we started to work with a pretty large law firm, very successful, and they'd been working with another company like like mine for for quite some time, and they'd seen success. And over the past year or so, they've seen kind of some declining success, which I think could be tied to, you know, a few different reasons. You know, one was I think, you know, the biggest I think is just there was some reluctance on the client to kind of change and evolve with what's going on in in the space right there. You know, hey, we've been super successful with this process for all these years. This is our this is our lifeline of revenue.

This is what keeps us going. We don't really want to change it. And the reality of it is is well, it's not so much that you want to change it or anybody wants to change it, but everything else that's going on around you is changing. And if you're not going to evolve with that, you're going to find that you're going to continue to get diminishing returns. And you know, I think one of the earliest conversations I had with them was really, look, I'm not not an advocate for just throwing everything out and saying we're starting from scratch. There's still value in some of the things you're doing, but we need to put some of these other things in place for you to be able to to show growth and over time you're going to be able to see the type of ROI that you're looking for.

Just give us, you know, give us that chance. Trust us that this is our area of expertise. And I think what really hit home for them was, hey, there's a reason that people utilize attorneys, right? It's because we might know we're right or whatever the situation is, but we don't know all the laws. We don't know the legalities of things. We don't know all that. We have to trust them that that's their area of expertise that they're going to be able to help guide us through that particular situation, whatever it might be. It's no different in some of the things that that we do, right? It's it's level of trust and gaining that trust and, you know, goes back to being, you know, accountable. So I think you know you're right people do play a large part in all these things because a lot of times people can be resistant to some of the things that are the very core towards what could be successful. People and how things are implemented and how things are perceived at the end of the day play a large part in the success of any type of business transaction in my opinion.

>> Yeah. I mean just quickly it's you know Gallup says that what there's 75% of the workforce is disengaged. So you know as a business owner you think about that you're like >> which three out of my four people aren't working right now. They're not doing anything. But, you know, kind of since the surgery, right, like I like look, I'm a a typeight personality, right? I'm a coming out the other side of a of a triple bypass surgery, which I had a couple years ago. Gives you a different perspective on life. Like, it really does. Like, it really, really does. Especially and for me, especially considering, you know, that that's what that's how my father passed away in 2020. He didn't make it off the table. Granted, he was 84. I was 48. So, it was a no-brainer to me. And I didn't I didn't have a heart attack or anything. It was just I, you know, I was in for a checkup and I didn't feel great. I was tired. Blah blah blah blah. 6 months later, crackity crack. So, you know, that >> it's easy to point the finger at people for not adopting things. But what what my experience has been and what I've seen is it's not that they're not adopting, it's that they're not even being asked or included in the conversation. Right? So, we're in the ERP space, you're in your space.

we walk in when when the system is being designed, you're typically sitting in a conference room with department heads, VPs, you know, people who haven't been out there doing the job for god knows how long. >> And I am always the guy that goes, before we do anything, let's take a walk, right? Let's let's go talk to the people on the floor. >> Sure. So I can understand what their pain points are. And usually people are surprised like they're they're genuinely surprised. I think partially because, you know, we're not the only vendor they're looking at, right? They've already been through this with two or three other software publishers and then here here we come and I come with my question. So it's that's that's what led me down you know one of my business paths which you know we'll talk about at a later date offline but yeah so anyway enough about me so you built you built webax to what over 100 people now >> we were uh our peak amount of people was around 180 people. Yeah.

>> 100. And you have eight offices with four being international or eight US offices, four international. >> We've had Yes. So we have presence in a lot of different places for sure. And uh not all the offices are are huge offices. Some are kind of you know sales offices, but yeah. No, we've uh you know, we've been able to you know, to expand the business and uh you know, really kind of take advantage of you know, the technology that's you know, that we're using today, right? you know, things like Zoom and and all these things have really made being able to have, you know, a workforce that isn't all in the same place a lot more accessible.

>> Yeah. The good thing they came from co >> Yes, that's one good thing that came from co I struggled to use Zoom before COVID to be honest with you. Yes. >> Yeah. You had to figure it out quick. I mean, I was working from home since 20 2015, so it wasn't wasn't a different any different for me. So with that being the case, you know, what does culture look like at that scale because you know that's typically where a lot of agencies are going to fall apart. >> Sure. I mean, I think, you know, the biggest thing today is really just kind of understanding, you know, the landscape of, you know, kind of what people are are looking for. And, you know, it kind of goes back to what you just kind of did with your example, you know, with within the ERP space. You know, being able to understand the people that are actually doing a lot of the work and really listening to them and and, you know, kind of what their requests and needs are and, you know, kind of how they envision the flow to be. you know, there there always needs to be, you know, someone making the decisions. There always needs to be someone who, you know, kind of runs the runs the ship, if you will. But, you know, nowadays, I think it's probably a lot different than when you and I were younger and, you know, businesses were just like, you showed up, this is what you did. You didn't really get a lot of input. You know, I feel like that culture has really shifted. People look for for more input. And I think as you know being the CEO you know one of the things that I've learned is like yeah you know sometimes take some of that feedback even if you're not 100% on board with it but say hey we're going to try it and let's see how that let's see how it works and sometimes it works out great and sometimes you're like hey we tried it it's not working out but I think the the big goal with business is something I think you and I can relate to very much when it comes to sports and any coaching that we've ever done, Right? You got to get buy in, right? You you need buyin from everybody. Everybody needs to buy into what you're doing. You can't have, you know, three quarters of your team or your company that don't buy into what that message is and what that goal is. So, I think being able to to try to create that buy in is the the biggest key I feel to really being able to to handle that type of culture.

>> Yeah, agreed. So, let's let's get to the kind of edge of what's happening right now. You guys just celebrated WebMax's 17th anniversary and in the same breath you announced what? >> That we were in the process of going through an acquisition with a very good partner of ours, Vertas. They're a public company based out of India. You know, I think being 17 years in the business over the last couple of years, one of the things that I really kind of looked for was someone that could be a partner that could really kind of help take us to the next level and really brought different aspects to the table that really kind of complemented us and complemented some of the things that we were doing. You know, one of the keys when I kind of looked at it was, you know, you know, I think that, you know, the vision that that they really brought was that they wanted me to be part of everything that they want me to, you know, kind of run the show. And they're, you know, they always kind of say to me, hey, we're here to help enable you to be able to to achieve more success. And I think that that's really been, you know, for me the the perfect fit. And you know for us you know I think you know there's been you know I talked about I use the word inflection points there's been over the course of time there's been different inflection points where I've thought okay you know what is the best path for us forward and you know I think that one of the things that really kind of came into play was you know we've talked about AI we've talked about kind of the changes that are going on within the industry and you know I think sometimes you got to look at things and say hey with so much change. Do we have all the internal resource and capabilities to be able to manage this change quickly and be able to stay ahead of the curve? And you know, that's one of the things by having a partner like Vertas that, you know, we're able to have that resource. We're able to have that backend support. And you know, one of the things I've I've said for years is, you know, in any type of business today that's dealing with technology, if you're not evolving quickly, you can become extinct in six months, like that's how quick things move. And, you know, making sure you're always staying ahead of that, you know, that to me has been one of the reasons why we've been able to survive for this long.

>> Yeah. So, another perfect segue. What what's which this is really a throwaway question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. What's the What's the biggest mistake most businesses are making right now? >> So, I think probably one of the biggest mistakes that I see businesses making right now is really kind of not adapting. And it goes back to, you know, some of the conversations we've had today. You know, I see people that have just kind of put their foot in the ground and said, "Hey, we're not going to really embrace AI. We're not going to change things. We're going to keep things the way they are. Our business has been successful for a really long time. We're not going to kind of evolve." And I think that that to me right now is, you know, is one of the biggest mistakes that I see businesses making. And typically, these are businesses that have had a longstanding success. they've done really well and they're, you know, they're somewhat set in their ways and and they're they're basically not willing to kind of face the reality and and what's the, you know, it's kind of that old adage, right? You know, you can't see the forest from the trees, right? Because you're you're in it. You know, you're in it so much, you don't really see what's going on on that outside. And frankly, you've been insulated from that. you know, your business has been so successful, you really have never had to look outside your network at what's kind of going on. And to me, that's probably one of the biggest things that I see right now are some very, very successful businesses that have done very well are just kind of unwilling to embrace some of the things that are really at the forefront of what's going on. And I see in real time companies that are more agile and you know maybe've you know been in business for a much shorter period of time but are embracing some of those technologies are gaining on some of these some of these bigger companies very very quickly. And a lot of it just really comes with that ability to be able to to understand and you know sort of read the room and make changes that are going to help your business really thrive moving forward.

>> Yeah. I mean that that connects to something that I've just recently started talking about being season 3 of the podcast. Um, but I it's it's it's going to come to the forefront here in the next couple weeks of shows and it's something that you know I I just call it like the human and machine equation, right? The machine side is what we've been describing, right? using AI, digital infrastructure to optimize how you show up, how you operate, how you scale, but the human side, the culture, the purpose, the people actually executing. I think that as well is what most businesses neglect. Do you see a pattern like that in your client base as well or not so much?

>> For sure. I think that uh a lot of times you know people don't you know places don't place enough emphasis on the people in the teams and you know they get kind of drawn into other aspects and uh you know I think that those are all kind of mistakes that that businesses tend to make over time and look I mean you know for me you know one of the biggest things that when we were kind of growing very quickly and got to you know kind of the the high volume of of employees that we had um you know I remember one day uh we would do you know some like you know like little things we do like pizza on Wednesdays or whatever.

This is precoid, right? So, everybody was in the office all the time. And I remember talking to everybody and going around. I would try to talk to everybody as much as I could. And I was like, "Wow, like there's, you know, a good amount of people here that I don't really even like know like know their name a little bit and I know what they do here, but I don't really like I've never really had a a conversation with them, you know?" And I thought to myself, well, you know, how are they going to really buy into whatever culture I try to have when they have zero connection to me? And uh you know, I did my best to really try to improve that. Like that was something that I put on myself that I said, "Hey, you know, I need to get out of, you know, my office doing whatever I'm working on and I need to spend more time trying to trying to, you know, make sure that, you know, people, you know, know who I am, know they can come to me and that our culture is one here that, you know, you're supported. You know, we want you here. We care about our people." And uh you know I think that that was one of those those moments for me that I realized hey I have to shift and prioritize some of the things that I'm doing to be able to make sure that I'm you know really promoting what and doing what I'm promoting you know that I really am connected with our team.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's that's one of the reasons that that that statement is one of the reasons when I reached out to you a couple weeks ago kind of talking about what the Dream Manager program is. It's just because you're the type of person that's going to listen to it and, you know, not just poo poo it away, right? Like I talked to God knows how many people I talked to, but nine times out of 10 the answer is no, we're not dealing with that. Like that's fluff. That's soft stuff. And you know, it it really couldn't be any further from the truth. Like I do get where they're coming from because five years ago, I probably would have answered the same way. So, you know, what goes around comes around, I guess.

So 25 years from now, a AI has reshaped the economy in ways I don't even think we can fully predict yet. What does the role of a digital agency look like or do they even still exist? >> Yeah. I mean, as much as I'm an advocate for AI, I think that uh one of the things that, you know, I I always kind of stress is that there's always going to need to be people that oversee that AI in my opinion. You know, >> yeah, agree. >> AI is never going to be able to make some of the decisions that as humans we can make. It can do some of the task work much faster than we ever could. It can do certain things that way quicker than any human ever could. But there's a certain level of you know just real world and real life experience that I don't personally don't think that that will ever be able to be replicated. So I think that the way that different businesses and companies will really operate will have a lot more uh you know we'll have a lot more input and a lot more utilization of AI but I also think at the same time how it's being managed by people will be a big driver of that and I also think one thing that I I you know I already kind of see some of this and that's you know there's some fatigue around AI already you know people you They want to see genuine content. They want conversations like we're having, they don't want some avatar of you and I having some AIdriven conversation. They want to hear real things. So I feel like as much as technology is advanced, at the same time there's this level of desire for authenticity and and genuiness. And I think over time where I think kind of that middle ground is going to be is you know businesses are going to you know utilize you know real people to do a lot of these roles that connect with their you know with their clients and a lot of that more task work will be done by you know AI or whatever we're calling it in 25 years. So as much as you know uh I feel the workforce will evolve I think you know it's a great example for you know for a lot of what you know you kind of have done you know is as hey you know I'm going to embrace it and I'm going to use it to my advantage and I think that that's how I see things really moving forward and you know where we'll be in 25 years. I still think that I'm not someone who believes that humans won't be doing any work in 25 years. I believe humans will have resource and tools at their you know at their utilization >> that we didn't >> right that we didn't that will make them better but I don't think that you know no I don't think that we will be you know completely unutilized in 25 years.

>> Yeah I agree. It's funny. I was talking to my EOS implement um over the weekend, I guess, and you know, I was just talking to him about some of the things that that I got going on and he was like, he's like, "Man, you are two years ahead of where mostly everybody else is." He's like, you know, for an old guy, not too bad. You know, he's a young guy like he's like, for an old guy, that's not too bad. So, you know, it was nice to hear, but I think it's just it's it's inevitable, right? I mean, it's it's it's coming. The tools just keep getting better.

You know, I go back to things like our fathers told us like work smarter, not harder. Like that's what that's that's what all these tools are like. Like it's it gives us the ability to work more efficiently and um >> work on value added stuff whether that be revenue generation, customerf facing activities like whatever you're not sitting there doing the same manual thing over and over again. So >> it's true. >> Yeah. Let's um pull the curtain back a bit. >> Okay. Because what I know about Ken and what I've seen firsthand is that, you know, building wealth was never really the point, right? It was nice byproduct, but things like the Toro jerseys, your investment in Camden, your pro bono work, where does that come from for you or in you? what what drives you to be so giving?

>> Well, thank you. You know, I think that one of the things that I've always kind of try to look at is that, you know, in in every situation, you know, if if you have been fortunate enough, you know, and I feel that along the way, you know, yes, there's been hard work, you know, no doubt about it. And you know, I've definitely put in time and made sacrifices to to get ahead. But without a doubt, man, I I've definitely had some luck that that's helped me. You know, things I could have went left or right. I went right. That was the right way. You know, there's there's, you know, there's been a lot of times that I feel like I've been, you know, I've been fortunate that, you know, things went the way that, you know, they might not have gone. and, you know, being able to do some of these things along the way that, you know, can kind of help and impact somebody and and have some positive positivity out there beyond kind of just the day-to-day. My wife and I have always tried to tried to try to take part of that. You know, certainly there's people out there that are uh, you know, far bigger donors and do a lot more philanthropy, but >> scale.

>> Yeah. I've always tried to do things that I felt like connected with, you know, things like the jerseys, you know, you can see that and you can see the impact that it has and um, you know, being able to do some of these things where you can actually feel like, hey, that's been, you know, a positive. That's something that, you know, really made for that situation to be better, you know, something that, you know, I feel, you know, uh, you know, goes a long way. And and I feel like, you know, hey, you know, trying to to do things like that, you know, it kind of plays into to hopefully some of the the good value that, you know, you can get out of things. So, I've always tried to tried to do some of those things and, you know, kind of, you know, utilize the fact that I feel that luck has played a part in in my success to be able to do some good with that.

>> Right. Right on. So, I'm going to ask you something that I ask all my guests, but maybe with a little different slant, but what's what's the dream that Ken is still building has nothing to do with WebMax, but you Ken the person like what what what is unfinished work for you and what is like on your bucket list to to still be done? >> Sure. Um, you know, I' I'd say that uh, you know, my wife and I just had a conversation about this a couple of weeks ago. You know, over the course of uh, you know, the last 25 years, you know, building the businesses, you know, when you run businesses, you know, you're never really off, right? you know, you're always you're always the one that's on, you know, and and you're always the one, you know, uh again, you know, I told the story one time about uh having to take uh an important business, you know, call a sales call like basically at the base of the, you know, the uh the castle in, you know, Walt Disney World, you know, and it's like, you know, to me, that's just part of what we do. Like if I'm not taking that call and I'm not closing on business, we're we're not able to go to Disney World.

>> Yeah. We're not at Disney World. >> We're at Wall-E World. >> Yeah. Like you've gota you've got to be able to do both. But I think one of the things that, you know, you know, for for me is really being able to, you know, take maybe some of the trips that we, you know, weren't able to do because there were meetings and things like that. And you know, so if I have a bucket list, it's probably trying to make sure that, uh, you know, some of these things I can can do with, you know, with my family while I'm still still healthy and able to. But, uh, you know, I think that, you know, basically, you know, along the way, you know, it it does, you know, being a being an entrepreneur is a commitment. And I think a lot of people see the, you know, they see the they see you at Disney World and they think, "Oh, well, they, you know, that they were able to do that because they're a business owner, but they don't, you know, they don't it doesn't track back to them when you're taking the call there trying to close a deal and, you know, you're supposed to be getting on your ride in a minute, you know." So, I mean, it's like, you know, all those things are kind of just part of what I think it takes to be successful. And uh you know hopefully I can you know spend a little bit more time you know with my family here moving forward and maybe take some of those trips that we were never able to.

>> Right on. I mean we're we go to Ireland next Wednesday. Never been, believe it or not. And uh neither of my parents ever made it there. So I'm bringing bringing some ashes with me. I got to stuff them in I got to stuff them in my suitcase. >> Yeah. because they all look at it as a contraband. I'm sure. >> For sure. >> So, this show is built on one premise and that's that organizations that invest in their people's dreams get a return that no algorithm can replicate. Right. It's the human return on investment. >> Sure. >> From what I see, you guys you guys live that, right?

We try to I mean that's been a you know we try our best. I mean even uh you know sometimes along the way right in business you got to make some some hard decisions. You know you've got to part ways with some people and you know do some things that are you know you don't want to do but you have to do right and you know recently you know someone that you know 20 years ago they were you know they were just coming out of college. they they had a lot of potential, but they weren't, you know, they they just weren't focused enough. And, you know, we you know, that kind of led to to us having to part ways. And I gave, you know, what I thought was good opinion to them at the time and said, you know, you have the ability. You have to make the commitment to realize the potential that you have. And if you do, you're going to be very successful. And didn't see that person for a long time. we reconnected and you know they went on to be very very successful and you know they they believe it or not I mean you know they actually were thankful for me you know kind of pulling them aside and doing that because it really put them on a track that they realized that you know just because they had this potential and they had this talent like you couldn't just not be focused and get things done like people at businesses they can't keep you there on the promise of talent you have to deliver. And you know, I was really proud to see, you know, how that message impacted him in this particular case and and he put his talent to good work and and has been very very successful.

>> Awesome. I'm going to take a minute here and be transparent with the listeners because, you know, again, this models exactly what the show is about, just from a different angle. Ken has offered to help me get some of these businesses that I got going on off the ground, and he's offered to do it pro bono, right? And that's not like I was genuinely floored when when you called me with that, right? I mean, here's here's the CEO of a nationally recognized digital agency, you know, saying to me, "Hey, man, I see what you're building and I want to help." Why? Like what what is it? What is it that you see? I mean what I see is the you know I see the drive you know I see you know you out there you know working hard to try to you know move things forward and that to me you know I feel is something that you know I connect with you know and I look at a lot of different things and sometimes like for example you know I am not handy I can't fix anything like literally nothing I >> me either >> putting in a light bulb is like probably the tops of what I can do and I'd say I'm 5050 on getting that right. But, you know, when it comes to some of the things that, you know, I look at and see and I know I can impact, you know, I look at someone like you and say, "Hey, you know, I'd like to try to give you, you know, some insight and some things that could really help you from just what I've learned, you know, things I've learned and maybe steer you in the right direction." Because I think sometimes one of the things people also don't realize is being an entrepreneur at times can be, you know, kind of a lonely scenario, right? people that want to help you. Are they trying to help you?

Are they trying to leverage you? Right? Are they trying to say, "Oh, yeah. Hey, I'm gonna come and help you for 60% of your business or I'm gonna come help you for this." There's very few times that you really find genuinely people that say, "Hey, I've, you know, I've been down the road that you've been down. I've done that grind. Hey, here's a few things that I found that helped me. Here's some things that could help you. Hey, here's some pitfalls to avoid." And I just think, you know, from my perspective, you know, being able to I, you know, I genuinely, you know, love dealing with with businesses. I I I love business. It's something that, you know, I just I feel like, you know, I'm the type of guy who drives by a store that's vacant. And I think, what store would would be successful there? You know, what type of business would be successful there?

>> Wa. always always thinking and you know just wanted to kind of you know hey like I say you know uh it's you know I feel like situations like that you know when I can help someone or something that you know I genuinely enjoy doing and uh you know um yeah want I I want to try to try to impart some some of my >> wisdom >> I guess you call it wisdom but a lot of it is >> mistakes that I made that >> that don't fall in the same hole. I could tell you don't make this dumb mistake that I made because I made that mistake you could avoid it and you know tough and along the way hey being upfront it was tough to find people like that I found a lot more people that were interested in trying to leverage me than help me >> right so through through the digital marketing lens right when you hear about a consulting brand like I'll say I'll say it's a brand um right you're talking about Trinity 1 have built an application that helps track the Dream Manager program and clientele SAS platform podcast all orbiting around one core idea. What do you immediately think about that? How does that hit you?

Is it is it too much? Is it too little? Is it I don't know. I'm just interested to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah, I mean my my thoughts are, you know, really what I see for you is really being able to just expand your reach, right? Like I think I'm, you know, because, you know, we we know each other. You know, I I'm more engaged in your content and some of the things that you're doing. And I think sometimes one of the things that I always look at is, well, how does how do you expand your reach? How do you expand your, you know, your voice so more people are able to kind of, you know, take hold in some of these things that you're doing? And I think that that's one of the things that I saw that I can help. And I think, you know, I kind of buy into, you know, a lot of what you talk about and the different aspects around the things that you're promoting. And I think, you know, sometimes what what I always look at is, you know, it's just a matter of, you know, people say, well, what separates this person from that person? They have similar content. And it's really it's just reach. You know, it's it's just the difference in, you know, >> people being able to hear that message.

And and that's where I really thought that I could help you was, hey, how do we take your message and get more people to hear it? You know, once more people hear it, you're already doing the work. You know, you've already created something that people are interested in. We just need more people to be interested in it. And I think, you know, you look at the, you know, kind of the, you know, the timeline of some of these people that have built some of these businesses that are really built around themselves and and the things that they've done. And you know they all say you know like hey you know I was telling the same story and had the same messages five years ago and nobody was listening.

And you know now suddenly I've gotten this audience and everybody says you're a genius. It's just a matter of being able to amplify that message and get more people tuned into it. >> Yeah. Um well I appreciate it. So again coming back to the intersection I keep coming back to like what you do helping organizations to be found like right you just said this like in reference to what I'm doing which by the way I am uh I am legally bound to say that the Dream Manager program is not my idea right it was a gentleman named Matthew Kelly's idea I'm just one of his students that that takes his concept of you know investing and your employees and team members in the workplace. So, let me get that out of the way. So, but but what but what you do with helping organizations be found, be trusted, be chosen online, right? That's the machine side of things.

>> Yep. What I'm doing is or what I'm working to do, I should say, is helping organizations build a culture where people are fully alive, fully invested, not miserable at work, right? Not worried about whatever's happening outside of the the that building. Um that that's the human side. So together, right? That's the whole equation. >> Yeah. >> So, so rapid fire, quick quick answers. You ready? Let's >> do it. >> Best business advice you ever got in one sentence. >> Best business advice I ever got was from my dad and it was basically just how to figure out profit and loss. You buy something or or it cost you this, you sell it for this. That's how you make money. Margin.

>> Fair. Worst worst digital marketing mistake you see businesses making over and over again. >> When they switch uh when they websites, they don't keep some of the same URLs and things that were that were with their sites for a long time and they lose rankings. they lose a lot of the value that they had and it's because a lot of times they're just focused solely on the aesthetics of the site but I always look at really kind of the the core of what the what the site has. So that's a mistake we see you know two three times a week. >> Yeah. Yeah. It'll kill a brand.

>> Yes. >> So if webac if webax could only offer one service out of all the services that you offer which would it be? Um, if it was only one lead generation, you know, I think lead generation is recession proof. You know, businesses are always looking for more leads and u, you know, that's kind of that's been my thing, man. you know, 25 years it's really been, you know, a lot of it has just really revolves around, you know, business businesses getting more leads to be able to to fuel their sales teams has been the core of what's really, you know, been, you know, my businesses.

>> Yeah. Um, final one. If you could go back and tell 25-year-old Ken one thing, what is it? I would probably tell him to, you know, probably take things a little bit slower at times and think through some decisions. You know, uh I think like a lot of people, you know, we get caught up in the moment, we make some decisions hastily. And sometimes when you make those decisions hastily, you can make them in a minute, but it could take you a year to unwind it. So, I think when you look at it from that perspective, you know, as I've gotten older, I definitely have taken more time to make decisions. In business, you need to be decisive. You need to make decisions.

You need to know that if you make a lot of decisions, there are going to be ones that don't work out. But nowadays, I feel like the decisions I make are well thought out and, you know, are ones that I know I feel I've made the the best educated decision on. Right or wrong, I've done the work. So, yeah, not to be impulsive would be uh would be, you know, probably the best advice I could give a 25-year-old Ken. >> I'm very impulsive right now. Well, Ken, you know, this has been exactly the type of conversation that this show is built for. You're a person who built something extraordinary, give generously, and is still hungry for what's next. Right. That's that's what I call like a a dream architect, right?

Somebody somebody who's always chasing. So, genuinely, I'm I'm grateful for your time, your generosity, your friendship, and for believing in what we're trying to build over here. >> Well, thank you. feelings mutual and and I look at all the things that you're doing and a lot of the things that you've accomplished and I look at you know what you know probably we'll be talking about a year from now how much further you're going to be able to to to be with everything. So uh you know I'm you know I feel the same way. So, I'm very appreciative to have the time that you took with me today and and talk to me and allow talk to about my experiences and, you know, hopefully some people out there that listen can relate to some of the things and know that uh you know, along the way there's going to be tough times. There's going to be times where you you question your decisions, but you know, you've got to be willing to make those sacrifices and you got to be willing to, you know, continue to push forward and and, you know, if you want to get to where where you really want to get to. And, you know, being able to do these things, you know, to me has always been not so much necessarily about just, you know, money.

It's been about building security, right? You know, being able to build your own path. And you know, you can never kind of you can never really stop that stop that once you start it. And uh you know, so that's you know, that's where I am today. >> Yeah. One of the the one of the pillars of the program, the Dream Manager program is like right like your character and your legacy. And that's what I hear you saying. Um, well, for everyone listening, if your business needs to be found, needs to be trusted for sure, and needs to compete in an AI shaped world, go find Ken and the team at Webomax. That's at webamax.com.

And if you want to learn how the Dream Manager methodology can transform your organization, head over to trinity1cculting.com and I'd be happy to talk you through it. As always, I'm Kevin Patrick. This has been the Dream Dividend.